The Capital Terminus collective - Atlanta USA

by spooners_ghost - BTR5/UGLF Network Thu Oct 13, 2005 02:52 spoonersghost at yahoo dot com

Ok oliver and gang, not only do i but my comrades in Louisville subscribe to the "rules" you have laid out in order to participate in your exclusive cult but so do the rest of the members of the UGLF Network that I spent time with and communicate with on a regular basis. Yet you and your cadre of "elistst" idealogues refuse to even attempt to reconcile with other collectives and individuals which you have through your own ignorance excluded. There is a truth that you seem to over look that is "that there is strength in numbers". However you only wish to add your numbers at the cost of some ridiculous ideology and rhetoric related dogma. If you and your crew of cronnies were to sit down face to face with some of these undesiribales not only might you expand your numbers but also gain access to a wealth of resources, talent and skills. While other collectives grow and accomplish through deed what you and the CTC aspire to you continue to flounder in your wasted efforts at PR and pleas for indoctrination.

by Lucas - NAF Thu Oct 13, 2005 04:00

thats the dumbest shit i have ever heard in my life- so the CTC comrades don't vibe with your wierd quasi-crimethinc poltiics and you wanna call them fascists for not wanting to work with you?

not to mention your little group is called the urban guerilla liberation front- which is the OTHER dumbest thing i have ever heard.

so are you in BTR as well?

fuckin' punkass hippies.

by spooners_ghost - BTR5/UGLF Network Collective Thu Oct 13, 2005 04:47

Hey Lucas yeah you are right it is some dumb shit, but if you had been there when all of this went down you might at least respect the motivation for my comment. CTC is using the ignorance (as in uninformed ) to exlude not just myself and other members of my collective BTR5 (Bardstown Road 5) which was formed around a small affinity group out of Louisville, KY and "joined" the UGLF Network. You are 100% right though it is some real stupid stuff, names and crimethinc apperance aside the very rules which CTC seems to aspire to are the same underlying motivation of my collective and also that of other UGLF Network colective members i have met.

It just seems stupid that these guys won't sit down face to face hammer out their diffrences and combine forces, as they are engaged in near competing/ copy-cat activities (publications, skill shares, organizing , outreach and the list goes on).
That is what is stupid is if the CTC would just let its dogma and self righteousness take a day off and spend a small amout of time talking with some of these UGLF Network collectives and members let go of the stupid ideas or impressions of them and see that they pretty much are going the same direction, it seems to be the semantics and language of the opprach that seperates them.

by Oliver - CTC Thu Oct 13, 2005 08:58

Frankly i have nothing to say to spooners_ghost, except that since he is part of a group which has called for a "boycott" of the Capital Terminus Collective, one would think that he would not want to post on a website in which we have been involved in writing for and helping to edit.

We have in the past told him and the rest of the Urban Guerilla Liberation Front that we want no further contact with them, and we have no desire to track them to every web post they make in order to harass them at every possible opportunity.

The fact that the first descriptor they use of us is "fascists" shows what they are about.

So I think moderation should be used on any future posts by spooners_ghost.

Cheers,

Oliver

by Duke - ATHA Thu Oct 13, 2005 09:05

Why does the Urban Gorilla Front care if CTC plays with them or not?

Surely there can be more than one group of anarchists in the entire southland.

by Andrew - Anarkismo Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02

As it has been raised and the tone of the posts in the thread suggest we may end up moderating this discussion here are some pointers.

We don't automatically remove the comments of any group or individual unless they are fascist or explicitly racists, sexist etc. If you look around the site you'll find a few comments from right wingers.

We do remove posts from anyone who does not respect the Editorial guidelines for comments (they are linked to in the Anarkismo.net box in the left column). Two points in particular are relevant here

Libelous or slanderous posts. Choose your language carefully. Do not make allegations against named individuals unless you can substantiate them. Posts which contain personal abuse against named individuals, rather than against their arguments or their political affiliation, will be removed without delay, particularly if those individuals are not public figures. 'Play the ball, not the player'.

Trolling. Comments which consist entirely of abuse towards any group, individual, or article without attempting to situate this in the context of the particular article or debate arising out of that article. So for example, a comment which simply says: "the Popular Front of Judea are wankers" will be deleted, while a comment that says: "The fact that the PFJ have refused this offer of an alliance shows them to be hypocritical wankers in the light of what they have said before", might remain

Most of the posts in this thread are problematic but don't in my opinion step over the line. I would ask that comrades drop the insults from future posts and just address the political and organistional differences that exist.

by Oliver - CTC Thu Oct 13, 2005 19:19

That's a great question Duke.

The UGLF have a history in Atlanta of being disruptive towards other groups. At one point they were going to demonstrations calling themselves representatives of Atlanta IMC without any knowledge on the part of Atlanta IMC. At another point they claimed their website was the true Atlanta IMC.

Several of the members of CTC have been involved with the Atlanta IMC and were aware of this. So when we began trying to organize for a southern anarchist federation and they emailed us asking to take part, we respectfully told them that we felt there was too great a difference in theory and tactics (exemplified by the name - we most definitely are not Urban Guerillas). We invoked our right of freedom of association and wished them luck in their organzing efforts.

Then they began to threaten us, telling us there would be trouble unless we allowed them to join our reindeer games. We had expected this from the beginning based on their reputation, and we responded firmly saying that threats would not change our minds.

This harassment continued until our convergence. After which a story was posted on Atlanta IMC claiming two 'competing convergences.' (http://atlanta.indymedia.org/newswire/display/37921/index.php ). Of course this was the first that anyone else had heard about the UGLF convergence, and that much of the story was dedicated to harassing the CTC. They also began promoting a 'boycott' of the Capital Terminus collective, which probably seemed as ridiculous to all of the bystanders as it did to us. However they still kept trying to communicate with (harass) us by e-mail, until we told them that we wanted no further contact, and in fact that we expected none since they were 'boycotting' us. Since then they have not emailed us but they have tracked nearly every web post we make in order to slander us.

Why do they throw such a temper tantrum when they are not invited to play with the other kids? It could just be the hallmark of extremely sensitive or lonely people. However we have strong suspicion that the UGLF is either knowingly or unknowingly influenced by the government. In fact those two options are often complementary. They exhibit many similarities to groups which had government influence in the 1960s, such as an over-the-top name and an obsessive desire to be a part of every group that is actually organizing, insulting and harassing organizers if they cannot get their way.

So in short, yes Duke there is definitely room for multiple groups in the south, however we have strong suspicions as to why the UGLF spend so much time harassing us for exercising freedom of association.

by TJ - SUNY Collective Thu Oct 13, 2005 20:51 sunycollective at yahoo dot com

Do people really believe revolution is a reality? The Government has an army of teenagers who do whatever they are told and armed to the teeth. Teddy Kennedy is passing a law that may even ban high powered rifles. Does an army of anarchists with shotguns and a few AK's have a chance??
It also seems to me that the divisions between left and right are ridiculous, since we all suffer the same rape by Bush Inc.
Revolutions cost money and right now I can’t even afford gas, not to mention ammo

by Colin Byrnes - CTC and damn proud of it Thu Oct 13, 2005 23:44

You have no idea what you're talking about. elitist? not only do we accept whoever wishes to help out or join, but we also associate with other Collectves in atlanta. maybe not the UGLF, because they are a bunch of pseudo-intellectual-adventurists. But we associate with the Madratz! collective who is responsible for the info-shop that is building here and they have gaine non-profit status. More that can be said about your cheap "thugs" of the UGLF.

I am a member of CTC and damn proud of it, because our membership history dates from the Spanish Civil war all the way to the present.

Ever since the UGLF called a "boycott" on the Capital Terminus Collective, we have GAINED membership! Nice work boys! PLEASE keep up the "boycott" so we can gain momentum.

In Solidarity with my COMRADES,
`Colin

by coyote - CTC Thu Oct 13, 2005 23:55

actually, spooner, Lucas was here in Atlanta "when this shit went down"
And for the record, did we deny you the right to particpate after traveling from Louisville as you're saying here, or did you vote not to attend after consultation with your uglf comrades, as you stated on Atlanta indymedia

http://atlanta.indymedia.org/newswire/display/37921/index.php

Oh, and tell Jaye the folks who really are in the Ga Peace And Justice Coalition counter-recruitment working group got a good laugh from his emailed remarks claiming to be our founder!

Our European comrades will no doubt be familiar with the small group of Norwegian "anarchists" who have claimed over the years to be the "real" IWA, the "real" IFA and the "real" IWW. UGLF ranks with them

by Ignatious - CTC & the Madratz! Collective Fri Oct 14, 2005 01:26

i think the idea of call the UGLF and their "affiliates" agent provocateurs is going a little far. But i do believe that they are just within the "wing-nut" fringe. I'm not trying to be slanderous just stating an observation.

they strike me as being like DC's worst Bill White, once "anarchist" (if you could ever call him that) turned "fascist." And like the UAP the Utopian Anarchist Party, the UGLF are just egocentrics with some very misguided ideas.

How long before the Jaye and the UGLF are basically chased out of the anarchist movement for their antics? It unfortunately took years for Bill white and the UAP to be. i think people wanted to give them a chance and see if they would shape up. But the UGLF's history falls inline with much of the UAP's. they are divisive and attack other anarchists and leftists for not letting them join in.

but why does this happen? Is it because every time the UGLF is allowed to they practically derail the project, or is cause they pretend to be other groups or take credit for what others have done? Or is it that they're lack of security culture and their rhetoric just makes other uneasy when they are around? It's all three. And maybe if they took the hint and played fair with other activists and stopped trying to take over or claim a victory out of someone else's work and listened instead of talking. people might just give them a chance.

As of now. There is no compromise with the UGLF. they called for the boycott of the CTC. So until they are making the first steps towards a healing process, there will be none. The CTC has ceased all communication with the UGLF, but as mentioned above by Oliver they continue to harass us everywhere we go.

This was a group decision. Not Oliver's, But the whole of the CTC, and the UGlF needs to understand this and to respect this decision. We cited theoretical and tactical differences with them. and they refused to accept it. they felt they could bully us and threaten us to accept them into larger whole. We did not need, want or desire to be involved with those we felt would hinder our goals and turn people away from us because of an affiliation with them.

over all 'nuff said.

ignatious, ctc and madratz! infoshop collective in personal capacity

by Jay - UGLF Network /B4 Collective Fri Oct 14, 2005 03:47 uglfmedia at resist dot ca

Well, well, well.....

you guys over at the CTC sure have been busy... this is a response to spreading of slanderous and libel half-truths and flat out lies by the esteemed members of the CTC.

first going back over 3 years ago i along with my life partner went to a palestine solidarity gathering in downtown atlanta. the actual statement which came from my lips was when asked what outfit i was with (parphrased) was that i was with an "alternative" media project from there it was immediately altered to "i was with the indymedia atlanta project". i took my pictures we left i posted a few hours later what i saw which was not much. a few people milling around with signs and placards and posted my pictures. after that somehow i and all my comrades along with any project we were connected to were "declared" fair game by the staff of the atlanta indymedia and its supporters. as oliver likes to point out how the CTC resreves the right of free association so to do i and the UGLF network reserve the right of self defense whether on the internet or on the street.
for 3 years i and my comrades have been discredited, and devalued on a constant basis by these self appointed masters of organizing and ideological elitists.

as to "threatening" the CTC for denying the UGLF a delegate at the south east anarchist founders confrence it wasn't a threat it was a fact that we issued a statement that laid out the facts that though declared an open meeting we would not be allowed a delegate nor would we be granted observer status which we felt that other groups would feel mislead by the CTC's action. that's only fair unlike oliver and gang we allow others the opportunity to decide for themselves who is worthy of comradeship. additionally due to being a target of police state repression we don't advertise everything we do and this is said in regard to the fact that only after CTC announced its convergence did we announce ours. we had been in fact quietly and securely planning our event to take place in solidarity with the G8 in scotland. sometimes security is our best ally.

now on to the issue of our name the Urban Guerrilla Liberation Front, yes it is a militant in your face upfronta title but it too can draw its ranks into the sands of time going back nearly 15 years.. in its previous incarnations it was known the slsa- the socialist libertarian shock army the direct action arm of the failed committee for social and political evolution. which to its credit was insturmental in organizing, training and testing tactics which would be seen on the streets in seattle in 99.

as a continuation the UGLF is made up of dispersed collectives and individuals. in atlanta the B4 is the one which i organize and support. in addition i am one of several who update the uglf website.

now to address the counter recruitment campaign i never claimed that i orginated the idea i only stated that at an organizing meeting the following sunday of the march and rally on m19 the idea of where and what we could do. i said that the recruiting station across from the city hall east on ponce would be a good place and that it would be a good idea. this is fact - i made these suggestions and i felt that somebody else taking credit for a comment i made even if they made it manifest should be cleared up.

as to the continued slander and libel regarding government affiliation well thats just stupid. and if you did your homework you'd know that i was subject to an intense intimidation campaign last year and it continues to this day.

get it right the uglf network collectives that had members in attendance during our convergance and the CTC's founders meeting agreed that due to denial of a delegate by the ctc was to boycott the results of the meeting and any articles of federation established from that meeting not the ctc itself.

as to myself and the UGLF network collective B4 to which i am a member and organizer i have on several occasions attempted to reconcile misconceptions and misunderstandings by means of the internet and in person only to be rebuffed. i will say this if the ctc operates like the imc atlanta i'll be suprised if you guys could organize a one jeep parade. not that i don't respect their efforts or their motivation but they can't even keep a phone on. but enough of that this is not about name calling or petty sqaubbling it is about getting the facts out there and bringing and end to this pointless and counter-productive conflict which has gone on way too long.

additional facts: i and others in the B4 collective were deeply involved with organizing efforts for the atlanta counter inagural events, and also the m19 second anniversary demo against the war in iraq. we have attempted in a personal and in a collective capacity to reach-out to other projects that are in progress throughout the city only to be yet again denied access due to bad mouthing or misconceptions which may or may not be the responsibility of the ctc. as a result it is almost as if there are two identical projects which copy eachothers exact moves. when the resources and assets combined would accomplish twice the success that each individual side is producing. we here at the B4 collective along with our dispersed comrades are engaged in community outreach ( FNB project we feed the hungry, we conduct skill shares, and are preparing to release our own publication which would have been ready long ago had it not been for some minor setbacks, other collectives report of anti minutemen action and so forth. ) all i and my comrades have asked for is the chance at a fair shake and the opportunity to be understood for who and what we really are but the ctc and others have refused this and have perpetuated the ignorance further and continued to isolated those who are UGLF supporters and or organizers.

so i will end this diatribe by saying this you know what your right 100% we can't see eye to eye on anything and that myself and my comrades are not worthy of your solidarity. on behalf of my self and my brothers and sisters everywhere we witsh the ctc, the madratz infoshop collective along with its supporters the very best in their efforts at the common struggle in which we are engaged you do it you way we will do it our way and from here for as far as i am concerned this pickering ends as it does little to serve our common quest.

the germans would say zum friedein (this ends now and let there be peace) we may not be able to get along due to ideological diffrences and so forth but we need no longer fight amongst ourselves as it only serves those we both call our enemy. i extend my hand one final time as a gesture of my intentions, oliver and others take it and lets put this pickering to a rest and go our own ways and carry out this struggle in our methods but not hinder or ridicule the other . if you need us we will be there- our resources, our ranks and our efforts.

we may never "be friends" but we can be allies we no longer need to fight and with that we leave you in peace and send our sincre best wishes for your upcoming projects. we hope that you will publically respond to this statement so that all may see that this has come to an amiable and productive conclusion.

by Oliver - CTC - personal capacity Fri Oct 14, 2005 05:25

As with any aspect of relations this will be decided collectively by the CTC.

However, in my personal capacity, I must say that the post asking for a truce is somewhat silly. Let's be honest: the Capital Terminus collective has never initiated verbal hostilities (or any other kind for that matter) with the UGLF. Any internet exchange between the two groups has begun with the UGLF bad-mouthing us, and then claiming to be persecuted when we respond. Only a matter of hours ago, on this very web page, the UGLF were calling us fascists. Even in the post which ended with an offer of truce began with attacks and insults. A "truce" or a "cessation of hostilities" is not something to discuss when only one side has been hostile. Let the UGLF simply quit their online harassment of us, and the Capital Terminus collective will continue our complete non-interference with their work.

by spooners_ghost - BTR5/UGLF Network Collective Fri Oct 14, 2005 06:54

Oliver, I was the one that started this not Jay. I and many of my comrades view the events of July engaged in by the CTC as counter revoultionary. All Jay has done is attempt to reconcile the diffrences between the UGLF network namely the B4 collective. It appears from my understanding that ( having briefly spoken with Jay tonight) he was unaware of this outbreak of "hostilities" until he was notified by another UGLF collective via e-mail about this whole thing. That after having read my post and follwing the thread he felt compelled to clear the air and make the statement the "issuing a truce".

Place the blame for the attack on me not Jay and I continue to stick by my words with pride. All he is trying to is get the truth out and to stop the pointless pickering amongst you, your colective, himself and others in the UGLF network.

Tom

by Duke - ATHA Fri Oct 14, 2005 19:34

This is silly. CTC needs to stop responding to these provacations from UGLF and UGLF needs to grow up a little.

Simply put, a multiplicity of anarchist groups in the south is a good thing. They do not have to, or should, work together if the premises they work under are incompatible. Which they are between these two groups.

Go organize people that are not anarchists.

by yery - jakarta anarchist resistance Fri Oct 21, 2005 15:29 arm_da_spirit at yahoo dot com jakarta

zero

go organize...stop wasting time and energy...

in personal capacity ..

by da nada - n/a Sat Oct 29, 2005 20:31

the energy i just wasted reading these post between ctc and uglf i could have gotten the same excitement watching a daily soap opera. this is a very example of why i don't belong to any sort of collective too much silly bickering over the same form yet different styles. is it po-tay-toe or pa-ta-toe?

by Dave - nefac Tue Nov 01, 2005 01:00 dave at nefac dot net

Well all this silly bickering aside i wish the best of luck to the brothers and sisters of the CTC and all others who wish to build a libertarian communist movement in the Southeast.

Internationally we are growing and learning from each other. Now more than ever we need to rebuild the revolutionary left after the terrible failure of Bolshevism and Authoritarianism.

Again the best to all of you and I look forward to working with you all in the future.

Dave
Montreal Local Union (NEFAC)